Part Extraction For Staves With More Than One Part

Place your wishlist here. Maybe the Sibelius developers will honor your requests.
MatthewNellComposer
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:35 pm
Sibelius Version: 2021.9
Operating System: Mac

Post by MatthewNellComposer » Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:46 pm

Sibelius has been around for a while. Dynamic parts are impressive, but it's annoying that I still have to make a completely new file just to make separate parts for Flutes I and II, Horns I/II & III/IV, etc. just because they're on the same staves in the score. When will the devs get around to that? I always feel like the features added in new updates are irrelevant to general workflow and don't solve common issues that users face in the program.


MikeLyons
Posts: 1707
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2016 7:20 pm
Sibelius Version: Ult. 2024.3.1/7.5
Operating System: Windows

Post by MikeLyons » Thu Oct 07, 2021 8:00 am

If you want to whine about this, go to somewhere where Avid staffers occasionally turn up - https://www.sibelius.com/cgi-bin/helpce ... &groupid=3. You will absolutely not be alone. We've all done it. However, in view of the fact that they are more concerned with getting sibelius to run on toy computers and have failed entirely to give PC and Mac uses any decent updates for the last 12 months don't hold your breath waiting.

How to solve your issue:
1. You will need to create two separate parts in the score (which will be hidden using focus on staves or by hiding the notes in the score and showing them in the parts.)
2. If you have been consistent in your use of div/unis/a1,a2/ voices etc the next step will be easy. if you haven't, then it wil be trickier.
3. Assuming you have been consistent, copy the music onto both new staves then, a section at a time, delete the music you don't need in each part. Consistent use of voices is your friend at this point.
4. You could try using explode to split the music automatically, but I have found it to be inconsistent and occasionally stupid.
5. Hide the extra staves in the score, delete the flute 1/2 parts using Parts-->delete parts to avoid accidentally printing them out.
6. Make sure you have numbered the new parts in the score (even though they're hidden) to be Flute 1 and Flute 2. I've forgotten to do this in the past and it causes no end of issues.

Alternatively - get Dorico.
Sib 6.2, 7.5 and 2024.3.1, Windows 11, 32GB RAM, 16TB 7200RPM Storage, 2TB SSD, Note Performer 4, EWQLSO, EWQLSC, Harmony Assistant and some others. mike@mike-lyons.co.uk

MatthewNellComposer
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:35 pm
Sibelius Version: 2021.9
Operating System: Mac

Post by MatthewNellComposer » Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:49 pm

MikeLyons wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 8:00 am
If you want to whine about this, go to somewhere where Avid staffers occasionally turn up - https://www.sibelius.com/cgi-bin/helpce ... &groupid=3. You will absolutely not be alone. We've all done it. However, in view of the fact that they are more concerned with getting sibelius to run on toy computers and have failed entirely to give PC and Mac uses any decent updates for the last 12 months don't hold your breath waiting.

How to solve your issue:
1. You will need to create two separate parts in the score (which will be hidden using focus on staves or by hiding the notes in the score and showing them in the parts.)
2. If you have been consistent in your use of div/unis/a1,a2/ voices etc the next step will be easy. if you haven't, then it wil be trickier.
3. Assuming you have been consistent, copy the music onto both new staves then, a section at a time, delete the music you don't need in each part. Consistent use of voices is your friend at this point.
4. You could try using explode to split the music automatically, but I have found it to be inconsistent and occasionally stupid.
5. Hide the extra staves in the score, delete the flute 1/2 parts using Parts-->delete parts to avoid accidentally printing them out.
6. Make sure you have numbered the new parts in the score (even though they're hidden) to be Flute 1 and Flute 2. I've forgotten to do this in the past and it causes no end of issues.

Alternatively - get Dorico.
Thanks for the advice. So Dorico is more intelligent for handling these situations?

MikeLyons
Posts: 1707
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2016 7:20 pm
Sibelius Version: Ult. 2024.3.1/7.5
Operating System: Windows

Post by MikeLyons » Thu Oct 07, 2021 9:17 pm

Yes. It has been a recently added feature that I was hoping would be added to Sibelius. It still has a few kinks, as a visit to the Dorico websites wil show, but it is there.
Sib 6.2, 7.5 and 2024.3.1, Windows 11, 32GB RAM, 16TB 7200RPM Storage, 2TB SSD, Note Performer 4, EWQLSO, EWQLSC, Harmony Assistant and some others. mike@mike-lyons.co.uk

vasic
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Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2024 5:56 pm
Sibelius Version: Ultimate
Operating System: Mac

Post by vasic » Mon Jun 03, 2024 6:37 pm

This is an old thread, but it frequently shows up on Google when searching for part extraction for multiple players per staff, so I'm resurrecting the threat with some Sibelius news.

Last year, Sibelius added a rather inconspicuous feature, in the "Bar Rests" engraving rules: "Use bar rests and multirests when all notes and rests in a bar are hidden". Enabling this feature essentially allows creation of independent parts from multiple instruments on same staff, even if their notes are different, but in the same voice, without having to create additional single staves and copy music into them.

The process isn't quite as simple as in Dorico, but it does allow you to take a score that has already been prepared properly (with pairs of winds per each staff) and generate individual parts for each in the pair (Fl. 1 / Fl. 2 from Flutes, Ob. 1 / Ob. 2 from Oboes, etc).

Here's how it works. Let's assume you have a full orchestra (pairs of winds for each staff). The project contains full score, and the default parts for each staff, which means wind parts contain notes for both instruments in the pair. To separate each pair into two independent parts, you will need to go to 'Parts' tab and create a New Part from the same instrument pair. For instance, you create a new part from Flutes. You now have two identical parts called Flutes, each containing both flute parts. Go to one of those parts, rename the part by double-clicking on the part name in the top-left corner and change it to Flute 1 (or Flute I, as needed). Go to the other part and rename it to Flute 2 / Flute II. Be careful not to delete ANY system characters in the name (\$PARTNAME=\).

Go to the part for Flute 1. Select all notes. In filter, select "Player 2". Hide this selection (click "Hide" in the 'Home' tab). This will now hide all the bottom notes wherever both instruments are playing, and 2nd voice, wherever it exists (i.e. wherever you had to split the two parts into two polyphonic voices, when the rhythm isn't identical). Once you hide the 2nd part, the only remaining notes will be for the 1st Flute.

Do the same thing for the Flute 2: go to filter, select "Player 1", then hide it.

The additional complication comes because Sibelius doesn't know the meaning of a2, 1. 2. Solo, zu2 and other similar markings. For example, in the 2nd Flute, when the 1st Flute plays solo, Sibelius will NOT select it for hiding, even though you had selected Player 1. For now, this filter only knows to select top notes in chords, all single notes, and 1st voice in polyphony. So, if there are passages where only the other instrument is playing solo, you will have to manually select them and hide them in this part.

One other wrinkle is those marking a2, 1. solo, etc. Sibelius will ignore them and leave them visible in both parts. To a wind musician, seeing a2 in their part is meaningless and confusing. To avoid unnecessary clutter and confusion, these need to be hidden from both parts wherever they appear (although Solo may sometimes be left, if it is important to indicate to the musician that it's a prominent solo).

I've done a few scores this way, and it makes it easier to fix wrong notes here and there, after the score and parts have already been laid out. Any changes in the score are immediately reflected in the parts, and I no longer have to make them separately in the staves for the conductor, as well as in the hidden staves containing individual parts. The problem is if I add new notes, or delete existing ones and then add others, I will have to inspect the parts and hide the unwanted notes from each of them. This is because whenever you add a new note, or any other element, it will automatically appear in both parts, even if it belongs to the specific polyphonic voice. You will have to manually hide the newly added stuff for each part.

The most significant nuisance of the old method was making sure to keep track of every single change and do it correctly twice: in the conductor's score staff, as well as in the hidden staves for the individual parts. If the changes are substantial, and include adding new notes/elements, the new method doesn't help much, since you still have to review the parts and make sure the new stuff doesn't end up appearing in the wrong part. At least you don't have the hassle of handling multiple hidden staves, and the worst that happens if you end up leaving the notes visible is that the musician will suddenly have two simultaneous notes (two-part harmony), when the other one wasn't hidden.

Another problem is with cues. In a scenario where, for example, 1st flute begins a section, and 2nd flute joins two bars later, it may be ideal to put 1st flute passage as cue in the 2nd flute part. However, since both of the parts are now on a single staff, you cannot paste the cue passage into the same staff (it will replace the actual 1st flute solo with cue-sized notes). Instead, you need to insert the exact same line into another polyphonic voice. So, the 1st flute part is, by default in Voice 1; you then add the same notes in Voice 3, make them cue-sized and hide them in the score. Go to 1st flute, select only Voice 3 notes and hide them in Flute 1 part. Go to Flute 2 part and make sure the cue notes (Voice 3) are NOT hidden. You will also need to insert Voice 2 and put bar rests in it, to indicate to the Flute 2 player that these bars are still rests. These rests will now appear in both Flute 1 part, as well as the score, so you need to hide them in both. As you can see, this is quite a bit of a hassle, but is doable, and the end result is correct (Flute 2 will have the line from Flute 1 as a cue, with proper rests under it). Obviously, if you later need to make change to the Flute 1 melody, you'll need to make the same change in the cue for the Flute 2.

I think Dorico still does this better. Music is all written on a large working score, one musician per staff, which generates one part for each musician. For the conductor, you just use the 'Condense Score' feature, which creates a separate new layout that dynamically combines pairs of staves for each wind pair, as per your settings. Any changes you make in any of the individual staves are automatically properly reflected in the conductor's condensed score, and there's no need to check back and forth.

But at least we now have an alternative option that may reduce the possibility of error when making changes to existing notes (missing or stray sharp / flat / staccato, etc.).

MikeLyons
Posts: 1707
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2016 7:20 pm
Sibelius Version: Ult. 2024.3.1/7.5
Operating System: Windows

Post by MikeLyons » Mon Jun 03, 2024 9:05 pm

What can I say, but thank you.

This is very useful information.
Sib 6.2, 7.5 and 2024.3.1, Windows 11, 32GB RAM, 16TB 7200RPM Storage, 2TB SSD, Note Performer 4, EWQLSO, EWQLSC, Harmony Assistant and some others. mike@mike-lyons.co.uk

vasic
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2024 5:56 pm
Sibelius Version: Ultimate
Operating System: Mac

Post by vasic » Fri Jun 21, 2024 9:38 pm

You're welcome!

Having now prepared a few scores this way, I find it a bit more of a chore than the old way (adding two more blank staves, copying two flutes to both, then filtering out the unwanted notes and stuff), but not really by much, and the moment you have to make edits, the advantage of the old way evaporates.

Another tricky issue is handling of slurs when, after a long phrase of two-part harmony (both instruments playing same rhythm), you get a bar in which you have to deal with polyphonic voices (different rhythm, using Voice 1 and Voice 2). When a slur goes across the bar line into or out of that bar, and in the adjacent bar, notes for both instruments are in Voice 1, the slur may not appear properly in the part for Flute 2, since for that polyphonic bar, all the visible notes will be in Voice 2, but the slur will be from Voice 1. This may require manually adjusting the slur to look properly.

An alternative way to solve all these issues is to put the two instruments into Voice 1 and Voice 2 respectively, throughout the score, even where they play the common rhythm. Obviously, this is not proper publishing practice, but if you need to churn out score and parts quickly, and it is just for some short-term project (rather than actual publishing and sale), the conductor will likely accept it, and part selection / hiding then becomes trivially easy, where all you need to do is select Voice 1 or Voice 2 for hiding. That way you don't need to deal with a2 / zu2 / 1. / 2. / Solo passages, if music is entered consistently and thoroughly, so that Voice 1 has 1st Flute, and Voice 2 has 2nd Flute, all the way through.

Perhaps the next step for Sibelius developers would be to intelligently recognise those 1. 2. Solo, etc., and select the relevant notes for hiding, as well as the a2 / zu2 markings themselves.

One can always hope...

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