Setting up a score

[Pete]

Dear people,

I'm new here and want to say what a relief changing to Sibelius is... I can finally understand mij programme...

Some questions (I'm using Sibelius 2):

1) I want to set up a large orchestral score; is it wise to put eg. both flute-parts in one staff? Can I extract them later on seperately in seperate parts? Or is it better to make different staffs for each voice (but the the score would'nt fit on a page)?

2) What is the best order to proceed: first the notes, then all dynamics etc. and then the lyrics, or doesn't it matter?

3) I have here 2 horns in G and 2 in E-flat, WITHOUT any key-signature. How could I notate them best? And: can I later on make F-parts out of tem.

Hope to get a quick answer, because my score must get finished in a week.

Thank a lot,

Peter

[Lurker]

is it wise to put eg. both flute-parts in one staff?

The simplest way is to have the score agree with the parts - put the flutes on separate staves. When you're more fluent with Sibelius you will be able to take a single stave with 2 flutes and make separate parts quickly but it takes a certain level of skill and practice to do this.

Don't worry about fitting on the page - Sibelius can handle a lot of instruments, and you can use "LAYOUT" to make a large custom page size and small staff size if necessary. Then use "Fit to Page" when printing.

> What is the best order to proceed: first the notes, then all dynamics etc. and then the lyrics, or doesn't it matter?

Mainly it doesn't matter. Sibelius mostly lets you jump from one to another. But I'd leave formatting and layout until you've got all the notes in place

>) I have here 2 horns in G and 2 in E-flat, WITHOUT any key-signature. How could I notate them best? And: can I later on make F-parts out of tem.

In Version 2 the instrument list seems to have Horn in G but not horn in Eb. But you can use Create > Transposition Change.to create horns in whatever key you like. If you're copying from something, stick to the key the horns are in and use the computer to change them later. Use Create > Staff Type Change to make a "5 lines no key signature" stave. In both cases, do this before you start, and either select the first bar, or click BEFORE the first bar to position the change.

When you want to make Horn in F parts, extract the parts, select the whole part (with CTRL-A) then just use Notes > Transpose to choose the appropriate transposition.

[Guest]

Wow, Lurker,

thanks for your quick and expert answer.

>The simplest way is to have the score agree with the parts - put the >flutes on separate staves. When you're more fluent with Sibelius you >will be able to take a single stave with 2 flutes and make separate parts >quickly but it takes a certain level of skill and practice to do this.

Could I do this and LATER fit them into 1 staff? and: HOW?

As I'm going to conduct from this score I'd like to have the "normal" classical layout, i.e. both flutes etc. on one staff.



>Don't worry about fitting on the page - Sibelius can handle a lot of >instruments, and you can use "LAYOUT" to make a large custom page >size and small staff size if necessary. Then use "Fit to Page" when >printing.

But then, with e.g. 24 staffs + choir = 28 the score will get printed illegible small, I suppose?


the horn stuff I'm goint to try tomorrow, hopefully I'll get it.

Thanks again, and: Sibelius is a really great program!! Are you working there or so?

I was working with Finale, brrrr.... terrible...


gr

Peter

[Peter]

Thanks, Lurker, that did the trick!!

[Lurker]

Could I do this and LATER fit them into 1 staff? and: HOW? . . .
the score will get printed illegible small, I suppose?

In simple cases you can combine to separate voices into one stave:

1. Select a passage in Flute 2
2. Use Shift+V to turn it into Voice 2
3. Use CTRL+SHIFT+ALT+2 to select Voice 2
4. ALT+Click in Flute 1 part to copy.

With large scores . . . best quality paper with best print settings usually works for me, though the scores are not readable from a distance (i.e. when conducting). But if you've just typed the piece in and edited it, you'll probably know it well enough. Use LARGE or HUGE time signature if necessary, and larger type for Tempo if there are may changes (though with Horns in G and Eb that seems unlikely).

Better still, buy (or make friends with someone who owns) an A3 printer, particularly if you're gong to do many large scores. They're no longer nearly as expensive as they used to be.

[Peter]

Hmm... that doesn't seem to work here, probably I'm doing something wrong...

I managed to turn say 1 bar of flute 2 into green notes (=V2), but I'm not able to copy them into flute 1: when I do that the original flute part (part1) seems to have turned into a whole-note rest...
In other words: is seem to be replacing the original notes by the notes of the other voice.


So: Alt+1 means: turn selected object(s) into voice 1 etc.?
And: CTRL+SHIFT+ALT+2 means select Voice 2? Correct?

What's ALT+click by the way?


>>>With large scores . . . best quality paper with best print settings usually works for me, though the scores are not readable from a distance (i.e. when conducting). But if you've just typed the piece in and edited it, you'll probably know it well enough.

Haha, optimist... I'm working on Berlioz now, a small part in a big concert with lots of notes, hopefully I'll get to know them all...


>>>Use LARGE or HUGE time signature if necessary, and larger type for Tempo if there are may changes (though with Horns in G and Eb that seems unlikely).

Why? What do you mean, concerning the horns? Yes there is one time-change and key-change, and the horns change along...

Thanks for all your help, trust me: I conduct better than I edit notes on computers...

Peter

[Lurker]

What's ALT+click by the way?

Copying can be done in a number of ways - you can use CTRL-C to copy and CTRL-V to paste, OR you can select a passage, then hold ALT and click with the mouse where you want the copy to go. This last way can also be done by clicking with the middle button of the mouse, provided you have a three-button mouse AND you have enabled this feature in File > Preferences > General.

So use SHIFT-V (or ALT 2) to make Flute 2 notes into Voice 2;

Select just Voice 2 (CTRL+SHIFT+ALT+2) and, while it's still selected, paste where you want it with ALT+click or middle mouse button. If it replaces the existing voice 1 (by making rests) you've got the sequence wrong.

If you select a bar and it has a blue line around it, you've selected BOTH voices and voice 1 in the target stave will be repaced. If you select just voice 2, only the green notes are selected (and the screen will have jumped away from the selected passage - a bug in Sibleius).

[Peter]

OK, thanks for your patience, Lurker.

I have a new idea: I set up the score and chose a big page for the layout, eg. 11 x 16 inch (twice an A4).

After completing the score I'll cut uot the upper 15 staffs (of 30) and paste them into an A4 paper-size, but in Landscape.

The remaining staffs in another document with the Landscape size, and print them seperately.

After this I only heve to glue them together.

QUESTION: do you see any hidden problems or should this work? In other words: am I brilliant or just pain stupid?

Peter

[Lurker]

am I brilliant or just pain stupid?

The problem with doing it this way is that Sibelius will attempt to re-space the top half, and even with format locked you may end up with bars which do not line up with each other.

I am only guessing here, but it's just possible that you could add a fake instrument in the middle of the page which has lots of notes (as many as in any other parts) which will force Sibelius into making the bars a particular size. Copy the top half + fake instrument into another document and keep the fake instrument with the bottom half you MIGHT find that the pages line up. But it might take some experimentation to make this work, or even see if it DOES work, and the spacing might not really be ideal.

This issue was recently debated at some length on another Chat page, and no-one there came up with any ideas other than those I've suggested.

Saving your Sibelius score in a graphics format and using a graphics program to print it in two halves seems the most sensible route.

[Peter]

Hmm, yes, I see what you mean...

OK., another suggestion: maybe if i keep the score together, on the original format, isn't there a way of just printing the upper half of it (by selecting the upeer 15 staves or so, and then hit "print"), witch would have the same effect?

BTW, where is this other chat-page happening?

greets,

Peter

[Lurker]

There is no provision in Sibelius for printing just the selected passage.

Since we seem to be grasping at straws, here is another idea which depends entirely on the printer you're using. Some printers can be set up to print Landscape even when the program is printing in Portrait mode. In this case, printing as if you had an A3 printer should print the top half of your score.

Some printers (not many) have an option in their setup dialog to rotate the page 180 degrees. If your printer did that, it would print the bottom half of the page.

You might end up with many error messages if you try this, but it won't actually do any harm to the printer if it's a modern inkjet or laser device. Unfortunately, though, few inexpensive printers offer both these options.

Is there really no way you can use a graphics program to do what you want? It would be so much simpler.

BTW the chat page I referred to was Sibelius.com > Help Centre > Chat Page.

[Lurker]

Sibelius 2 allows you to save in a variety of graphics formats. I've just looked again, and seen that you can save in JASC Paint Shop format. JASC Paint Shop is, I believe, a free download (with limitations on some features). Even if you don't have another graphics program to hand, you could try downloading this one.

But if you're using Windows, surely you have the "Paint" program? Save each page of your score as .BMP, open in Paint, select the top half to copy to a new document . . . . etc. Fifteen hours later, covered with glue, you'll have your score.

Check in the "Save As Graphics" list to see if you can possibly use this method and try it for a couple of pages.

[Peter]

Is there really no way you can use a graphics program to do what you want? It would be so much simpler.

Well, that option I sort of ignored bcause I din't really understand it. Could you elaborate on it? What kind of program could one use for that purpose?

And no: my printer doesn't support your idea, however brilliant...

Sibelius needs a little development still, if I may say, but it's really a great program anyway.

[Lurker]

O.K. here goes. I've just done this to test it out, with excellent results.

Lets say you have Adobe Illustrator.

In Sibelius, save a page of your score using "Save As Graphics"; search through the list of file types displayed in the Save dialog to find the right format ("Adobe Illustrator EPS"); click on it, then press Save. It will end up in a new folder in the same place as your score.

Open this file in Adobe Ilustrator. You will probably see an A4 portraint page with a giant image spilling over the edges. Use FILE > DOCUMENT SETUP to change to Landscape format. Drag the image down until the top half fits onto the A4 Landscape page; Print.

Drag the image up until the bottom half fits on the page; Print.

It's not as simple as that in all programs. In some you will have to juggle percentage sizes and other settings to get it right. In other programs you can print tiled pages, which will give you an overlap to help you glue pages accurately.

I'm afraid it's a matter of experimenting with whatever graphics package you've got.

[Peter]

Wow, that sounds good. Of course I dont have such programmes, I have only Word, Works 2000, MS Paint and Picture It!, and UleadPhotoExpress.

Would it work with these programmes? Probably not.

Could you given me a short list of programmes witch, in your opinion, could do the job? I'm not an expert, so then I know what to look for (apart from the Adobe you mentionend).

Thanks again.

Peter