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Create a copied (transposed) part correctly...

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Create a copied (transposed) part correctly...

Postby DrLou » Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:05 pm

OK, here's a wonky one - I'm quite sure Sibelius can do this. Help!

Imagine my theoretical score. It's a screaming one measure, one-note solo for Horn in F. The horn plays - wait for it... an F! (I really can't wait for audience reaction to our first performance!)

Meanwhile, the steps:
I've created a non-transposing score with one instrument - Horn in F;
The written F on the score produces the same written F on the resultant Horn in F part, also tagged non-transposing. So far, so good!

Now, I would now like to copy this part into a perfect-unison part for Alto Sax - which should be a transposing part, of course(?)

My simple-minded transposer brain says the Horn's written F should become the Alto Sax's written G. ( Correct? )

However, Sibelius produces a ( written ) D on the Alto Sax part. What the heck am I doing wrong?
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Re: Create a copied (transposed) part correctly...

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Re: Create a copied (transposed) part correctly...

Postby MikeLyons » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:50 pm

Out of curiosity, I have to ask "Why are you writing non-transposed parts for horn in F?

Alto Sax is in Eb. A concert pitch (piano) C will show up as an A
Horn in F will show a G for the same note.

A concert F will show as a C on Horn in F and as D on Alto Sax.

You aren't confusing 'non-transposing' with 'no key'?
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Re: Create a copied (transposed) part correctly...

Postby DrLou » Sun Mar 11, 2018 5:01 am

MikeLyons wrote:Out of curiosity, I have to ask "Why are you writing non-transposed parts for horn in F?
I'm not. The whole backstory - I'd rather not complicate the question unnecessarily - is that I've inherited a project built this way. The original, printed score shows all the instruments in their already-transposed notation. To make it a bit more confusing, the score is 'keyless', another reason for me to have assumed it was in C. Yes, this seems weird. But it's what the (original) arranger did. The score is engraved with notes for each instrument already transposed into their correct notations.

MikeLyons wrote:You aren't confusing 'non-transposing' with 'no key'?
No, I don't think so.

In brief: As a test, I recreated my steps: I've created a non-transposing score for my mythological one-note Horn Concerto, with only two instruments: The Horn in F and Horn in F (no key).
Each of these instruments has one note, an F.
I can easily print Horn in F and Horn (no key) parts by simply tagging the part non-transposing as well; IE, the F on the score is an F on either Horn's part, and it is correct; this is what I want.

What I need to do next, though: Is create an Alto Sax part in perfect unison with the Horn part. Again, the key bit is: I've been using Sibelius' Parts:Copy and Change Instrument function to produce the sax parts. The piece, as written, uses no saxes, and I'm trying to include my intrepid brass-challenged colleagues(!)
But the Alto Sax part - which I'm assuming must be marked 'transposing', by definition - transposes the Horn's F into a written D for sax. In other words, Sibelius seems to be assuming the score is always in C, even though I've marked the instrument Horn in F. OK, I guess I see the logic in this (making the score always in 'C'?); but how do I 'trick' Sibelius into doing what I want? Put another way, shouldn't the Copy and Change Instrument function start from the origin part, and transpose correctly from there?

MikeLyons wrote:Alto Sax is in Eb. A concert pitch (piano) C will show up as an A
Horn in F will show a G for the same note.

A concert F will show as a C on Horn in F and as D on Alto Sax.
Your notes follow exactly what (little) I know about transposition(!) Frankly, I'm just cross-referencing a 'Music Theory 101' transposition chart to double-check my thinking.
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Re: Create a copied (transposed) part correctly...

Postby MikeLyons » Sun Mar 11, 2018 7:14 am

Sibelius has the ability to show the score (and/or parts) as either transposed or concert pitch. Check the button on the ribbon. It will tell you what the case is.

I'm not sure how best to go about sorting this mess out without sight of the original sib file.
Sib 6.2, 7.5 and 8.5, Windows 10, 8MB RAM, 7TB 7200RPM Storage, Note Performer 2, EWQLSO, EWQLSC, Harmony Assistant and some others.
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Re: Create a copied (transposed) part correctly...

Postby DrLou » Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:49 pm

MikeLyons wrote:Sibelius has the ability to show the score (and/or parts) as either transposed or concert pitch. Check the button on the ribbon. It will tell you what the case is.

I'm not sure how best to go about sorting this mess out without sight of the original sib file.
May I presume to send you a copy of my little test score?

Again, the process: Everything is non-transposing from score through to (non-transposing) Horn in F parts. Yes, I am using the ribbon Transposing Score button to be sure of this.

From there, I select either of the Horn in F parts, and use Copy and Change Instrument to create an Alto Sax part. This part is tagged as 'transposing'. Am I doing everything correctly?

The issue, simply, seems to be that Sibelius insists on transposing the Horn part from Concert Pitch ( IE, the F becomes a D ), when I would expect the Horn's F to become a G. There surely must be some magic in Sibelius to effect this transition.
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Re: Create a copied (transposed) part correctly...

Postby DrLou » Sun Mar 11, 2018 3:37 pm

Further testing - mostly just so I can understand a bit more about Sibelius' internals:

I created another test score:
Transposing with one instrument: Horn in F (no key)
One bar, one whole note: a written F.
Horn Part produces perfectly - a written F.
From that part, Copy and Change Instrument - to Alto Sax - works perfectly! I get the expected: G !

Super. OK.

So now the question is: How do I remediate the entire score back to a transposed structure, with minimal data re-entry? ( Did I mention: this is a roughly 100-page score? )

By the way, have tried copy-pasting the entire instrument from one score to a new one, hoping to 'manually' transpose notes into position. No Joy; get lots of unwanted accidentals - as might be expected.

The gotcha here was that, being entirely keyless, and with no annotation mentioning 'I am already a transposed score!', the original seemed to be in C. It's only when I started doing playback, or - in this case - tried a new instrument transposition, that Pandora was introduced...

Any brilliant insights will be welcomed.
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Re: Create a copied (transposed) part correctly...

Postby MikeLyons » Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:23 am

Triple-click each transposing staff in turn and transpose it (Note Input-->Transpose) by the appropriate amount Triple-click will select the whole staff throughout the score. You will have to transpose each part backwards, if you see what I mean!

If you play this music back it must sound fairly awful! When it stops sounding awful, you'll know you've done it right! :D
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Re: Create a copied (transposed) part correctly...

Postby bobp » Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:48 pm

Well, I'm sure confused. But it seems to me that "Copy and change instrument" is the problem. Is that two different steps? Seems to me that in your simple example, you would create a non-transposing score with a horn in F staff. Write your note. Add an alto sax staff(or create both at the on set). Write the same note. You might need to fiddle with octaves. I don't think you need to tag anything. If someone is going to play these parts, you'll have to switch to transposing score and there will be a key signature (if it was in C to begin with).

Or have I, once again, missed the point?
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Re: Create a copied (transposed) part correctly...

Postby MikeLyons » Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:53 pm

DrLou wrote:May I presume to send you a copy of my little test score?

Again, the process: Everything is non-transposing from score through to (non-transposing) Horn in F parts. Yes, I am using the ribbon Transposing Score button to be sure of this.

From there, I select either of the Horn in F parts, and use Copy and Change Instrument to create an Alto Sax part. This part is tagged as 'transposing'. Am I doing everything correctly?

The issue, simply, seems to be that Sibelius insists on transposing the Horn part from Concert Pitch ( IE, the F becomes a D ), when I would expect the Horn's F to become a G. There surely must be some magic in Sibelius to effect this transition.


By all means send me a score. If you send the original score I can see what is going on there.

Otherwise, it seems to me that you are not quite understanding what Sibelius is doing. You can enter notes into sibelius in concert pitch (ie the sounding notes that the instruments will produce. So, When a trumpet in Bb sees the note C on its staff it will produce a Bb, When a horn in F sees the same C it will produce an F. A flute will produce C because it is not a transposing instrument. An alto Sax will produce an Eb and a Tenor Sax will produce a Bb.

When you have finished inputting notes in Concert pitch, you click the transposing score button and Sibelius automagically transposes all those parts that need transposing to the correct pitch for the player to read.

It sounds, from what you have said, as if someone has input this score using the transposed pitches (from player parts, for example) but done it while the score was displaying in non-transposed mode. Sadly, I can't attach a sib file here!
Sib 6.2, 7.5 and 8.5, Windows 10, 8MB RAM, 7TB 7200RPM Storage, Note Performer 2, EWQLSO, EWQLSC, Harmony Assistant and some others.
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