Sibelius fails to load

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Rob M.
Posts: 109
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:33 am
Sibelius Version: 2021.9
Operating System: Windows

Post by Rob M. » Sun Sep 19, 2021 12:03 am

I'm running Sibelius Ultimate 2021.2 on Windows 10 Home version 21H1. Recently, Sibelius refuses to start. The splash screen appears, followed by an appropriate entry in Task Manager. Then both disappear after "initializing playback system" is displayed on the splash screen. Sibelius theme sound does not play. There is no error message.
How do I get Sibelius to start?
Cheers...
Rob M.
------------
Sibelius user since Aug '08 (v5.x)
Now running Sibelius Ultimate 2021.2 on Win 10 Home x64 v21H1
AMD A10-5800K 3.8GHz APU on a Gigabyte GA-F2A85X-UP4 mobo; 8GB RAM; 2TB HDD


andyg
Posts: 1727
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2006 8:55 pm
Sibelius Version: 7.1.3 and 6.2
Operating System: Windows

Post by andyg » Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:57 am

The Sibelius start up sound is nothing to to do with Sibelius' audio system as such, it's just an audio file played by Windows, so if you're not hearing that, it suggests a driver issue with your audio card. The fact that Sibelius stops on 'initialising playback' is another indication of this.

Go to your audio card manufacturer's website, download and install the latest drivers. Don't take Windows' word for it if it tells you that the drivers are up to date.

See what that does. If it doesn't cure the problem, ask on the official Sibelius chat pages and one of the experts there will help you further.

MikeLyons
Posts: 1631
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2016 7:20 pm
Sibelius Version: Ult. 2024.3.1/7.5
Operating System: Windows

Post by MikeLyons » Sun Sep 19, 2021 2:43 pm

what Andy said. Also, if Sib Ultimate used to work - what changed between the last time it worked and when it didn't? Something has.
Sib 6.2, 7.5 and 2023.6, Windows 11, 32GB RAM, 16TB 7200RPM Storage, 2TB SSD, Note Performer 3.3.2, EWQLSO, EWQLSC, Harmony Assistant and some others. mike@mike-lyons.co.uk

Rob M.
Posts: 109
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:33 am
Sibelius Version: 2021.9
Operating System: Windows

Post by Rob M. » Sun Sep 19, 2021 10:38 pm

andyg said:
Go to your audio card manufacturer's website, download and install the latest drivers. Don't take Windows' word for it if it tells you that the drivers are up to date.
I did check for audio system updates -- Windows said I had the current drivers. Thanks for the warning that Windows does lie, sometimes. I'll check the manufacturer's website. Should be interesting -- it's an on-board card, and the mobo is now 8 years old. And running just fine, other than Sibelius' sudden refusal to play nicely. No other audio problems noted.

MikeLyons said:
Also, if Sib Ultimate used to work - what changed between the last time it worked and when it didn't? Something has.
Good point. The only change I'm aware of is a Windows quality update, i.e., KB5005033. Interestingly (and possibly quite irrelevant), it seems that update changed the Windows version number. Prior to that update, I was running Windows 10 Home x64 v2004. Windows now says I am running v21H1. Which makes me wonder if I should roll that update back.
Cheers...
Rob M.
------------
Sibelius user since Aug '08 (v5.x)
Now running Sibelius Ultimate 2021.2 on Win 10 Home x64 v21H1
AMD A10-5800K 3.8GHz APU on a Gigabyte GA-F2A85X-UP4 mobo; 8GB RAM; 2TB HDD

MikeLyons
Posts: 1631
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2016 7:20 pm
Sibelius Version: Ult. 2024.3.1/7.5
Operating System: Windows

Post by MikeLyons » Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:24 am

Here's something to try. Go to C:\Users\[your username]\AppData\Roaming\Avid\Sibelius\PlogueEngine and open the log file.

It may be a very long file. See if there is any entry that shows "failed". Is the sound card chip a Realtek or a Creative device by any chance? These are known to have issues in later versions of Sibelius and could also be the cause of the crash.
Sib 6.2, 7.5 and 2023.6, Windows 11, 32GB RAM, 16TB 7200RPM Storage, 2TB SSD, Note Performer 3.3.2, EWQLSO, EWQLSC, Harmony Assistant and some others. mike@mike-lyons.co.uk

Rob M.
Posts: 109
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:33 am
Sibelius Version: 2021.9
Operating System: Windows

Post by Rob M. » Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:23 pm

MikeLyons wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:24 am
Here's something to try. Go to C:\Users\[your username]\AppData\Roaming\Avid\Sibelius\PlogueEngine and open the log file.

It may be a very long file. See if there is any entry that shows "failed". Is the sound card chip a Realtek or a Creative device by any chance? These are known to have issues in later versions of Sibelius and could also be the cause of the crash.
Thanks for the suggestion.

In my case, the PlogueEngine logfile is all of 15 lines long. I don't see anything that looks like a failure, but you can be sure that I am not an expert in reading computer log files.

As noted previously, the sound card is on the motherboard (a Gigabyte GA-F2A85X-UP4). The mobo manual says the sound card chip runs on a Realtek ALC892 codec. A search on Gigabyte's website didn't turn up any drivers newer than 2015 for that subsystem.

FWIW - Everything was running fine until at least Sept. 8. I had no difficulty running Sibelius up until that date. The next time I went to do some notation about a week later, Sibelius refused to start. Until then, I'd been running Sib 2021.2 without problems since July 21; before that, I was running v2020.6 without problems.
Cheers...
Rob M.
------------
Sibelius user since Aug '08 (v5.x)
Now running Sibelius Ultimate 2021.2 on Win 10 Home x64 v21H1
AMD A10-5800K 3.8GHz APU on a Gigabyte GA-F2A85X-UP4 mobo; 8GB RAM; 2TB HDD

MikeLyons
Posts: 1631
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2016 7:20 pm
Sibelius Version: Ult. 2024.3.1/7.5
Operating System: Windows

Post by MikeLyons » Tue Sep 21, 2021 6:59 am

Can you email me a copy of the plogue engine file? I'll take a look. Also, can you post screenshots of two of Sib's dialogs - Audio Engine Options and Playback Devices?
Sib 6.2, 7.5 and 2023.6, Windows 11, 32GB RAM, 16TB 7200RPM Storage, 2TB SSD, Note Performer 3.3.2, EWQLSO, EWQLSC, Harmony Assistant and some others. mike@mike-lyons.co.uk

Rob M.
Posts: 109
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:33 am
Sibelius Version: 2021.9
Operating System: Windows

Post by Rob M. » Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:14 pm

I'm not fond of threads like this one that quit midstream because they offer no clue as to what the solution was. So here's what has happened to date.

I e-mailed the PlogueEngine log file to Mike. The PlogueEngine log file's last section was:

I:0x 4:19052:81340629:Initialising Devices...
I:0x 4:19052:81340629:-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I:0x 104:19052:81340770:INFO: ASIO names[0]:ASIO4ALL v2

Mike suggested that it indicated that ASIO4All was interfering somehow, which surprised me because it was installed last March and hadn't created any noticeable problems until mid-September. And as far as I know, Sibelius doesn't use ASIO4All.

Anyway -- I uninstalled ASIO4All, restarted my system, and launched Sibelius. Successfully.
In the process, Sibelius re-wrote the PlogueEngine log file, leaving a zero-length file in its place with the current date and time on that file. Mike was expecting the PlogueEngine log file to get a lot larger, and is now looking at other things. If anything relevant turns up, I'll add it to this thread.

If anyone knows of a way to install ASIO4All without interfering with Sibelius, I'd love to hear it. Without ASIO4All, I can't use Jamulus.
Cheers...
Rob M.
------------
Sibelius user since Aug '08 (v5.x)
Now running Sibelius Ultimate 2021.2 on Win 10 Home x64 v21H1
AMD A10-5800K 3.8GHz APU on a Gigabyte GA-F2A85X-UP4 mobo; 8GB RAM; 2TB HDD

MikeLyons
Posts: 1631
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2016 7:20 pm
Sibelius Version: Ult. 2024.3.1/7.5
Operating System: Windows

Post by MikeLyons » Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:29 am

Hi Rob, is there a reason you haven't installed the sib sounds or some other sound library?
Sib 6.2, 7.5 and 2023.6, Windows 11, 32GB RAM, 16TB 7200RPM Storage, 2TB SSD, Note Performer 3.3.2, EWQLSO, EWQLSC, Harmony Assistant and some others. mike@mike-lyons.co.uk

Rob M.
Posts: 109
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:33 am
Sibelius Version: 2021.9
Operating System: Windows

Post by Rob M. » Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:04 pm

Yup. One reason. Sheer laziness. That and the fact that General MIDI is adequate for my needs, i.e., checking my scores for notation errors. I've almost never played back a score for any other reason.

I have thought about installing the Sibelius Sounds files, but that's just out of curiosity to see how they compare to the GM sounds. So I've never gotten around to doing that.

You suggested re-installing the most recent version of ASIO4All to see if it would also break Sibelius. I see that the current version is now v2.15(Beta 2). I had v2.15(Beta 1) installed previously. So I'll give (Beta 2) a try. Maybe that'll also resolve ASIO4All's flakiness in dealing with the microphones I use for Jamulus. Without breaking Sibelius.

As for the screenshot you asked for by e-mail -- I'll e-mail that to you soon. Probably tomorrow. Or maybe sooner.
Cheers...
Rob M.
------------
Sibelius user since Aug '08 (v5.x)
Now running Sibelius Ultimate 2021.2 on Win 10 Home x64 v21H1
AMD A10-5800K 3.8GHz APU on a Gigabyte GA-F2A85X-UP4 mobo; 8GB RAM; 2TB HDD

andyg
Posts: 1727
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2006 8:55 pm
Sibelius Version: 7.1.3 and 6.2
Operating System: Windows

Post by andyg » Sat Sep 25, 2021 8:55 am

I'd suggest a very careful read about how ASIO4ALL works.

https://www.asio4all.org/index.php/help ... on-manual/

Particularly attention to what it says about NOT using the GM sounds!

I haven't looked but there may be an ASIO4ALL forum, and this question is probably best asked and answered there if there is.

Rob M.
Posts: 109
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:33 am
Sibelius Version: 2021.9
Operating System: Windows

Post by Rob M. » Sat Sep 25, 2021 8:53 pm

andyg wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 8:55 am
I'd suggest a very careful read about how ASIO4ALL works.

https://www.asio4all.org/index.php/help ... on-manual/
Thank you for that, Andy.

I discovered that guide a couple of days ago when I went to the ASIO4All website for the current version of ASIO4ALL in the hope that an update might resolve my Jamulus issues and perhaps allow Sibelius to start when ASIO4ALL is present on my machine. And I read the guide. And downloaded the PDF version. Unfortunately, some of it is Greek to me. Audio devices on Windows are something I don't know much about.
Particularly attention to what it says about NOT using the GM sounds!
I saw that statement, but it didn't seem to apply to Sibelius. Was I wrong about that? I don't run Jamulus when I'm running Sibelius, and Sibelius obviously doesn't use ASIO4ALL. Sibelius seems happier when ASIO4ALL isn't present on my machine.

Sure, that statement probably applies to Jamulus and and may apply to my difficulty in getting a microphone feed to a Jamulus server. The USB audio interface I use for Jamulus doesn't have drivers of its own. But I don't use that device when running Sibelius.

Should I interpret the ASIO4ALL guide's statement to mean that I need to disable GM in Sibelius as a playback device when I want to use Jamulus? How would that setting interfere with Jamulus when Sibelius isn't running? (I always shut down unnecessary apps -- including Sibelius -- when using Jamulus.)

Also possibly relevant: GM is the only playback device I have in Sibelius. I don't have any playback devices on my system other than those provided my the RealTek chip on my motherboard. So how would I avoid using GM sounds in Sibelius to check a score? (That's all I use Sibelius's playback feature for. I don't need the abilities of a DAW or sequencer and would much rather avoid those complications.)
I haven't looked but there may be an ASIO4ALL forum, and this question is probably best asked and answered there if there is.
That's good advice. Unfortunately, I haven't found one yet, but I suppose that could be because I didn't look hard enough. There is a Jamulus group on Facebook; not surprisingly, references to ASIO4All appear there fairly frequently. I don't recall any references to a specific on-line group for ASIO4All. But I'll look some more.
Cheers...
Rob M.
------------
Sibelius user since Aug '08 (v5.x)
Now running Sibelius Ultimate 2021.2 on Win 10 Home x64 v21H1
AMD A10-5800K 3.8GHz APU on a Gigabyte GA-F2A85X-UP4 mobo; 8GB RAM; 2TB HDD

andyg
Posts: 1727
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2006 8:55 pm
Sibelius Version: 7.1.3 and 6.2
Operating System: Windows

Post by andyg » Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:01 am

Make sure that Sibelius is not using ASIO4ALL. Normally you would look in the Audio Engines window but if it won't load...... IIRC, GM and ASIO4ALL are not compatible.

As for Jamulus, I don't know anything about that app. There's propably a forum for that as well!

I'd download and install the Sibelius Sounds, or get something like Note Performer and use those sounds for playback. They're way better than the GM soundset and allow you to use various articulations of sound, like pizzicato or spiccato on strings. Sibelius Sounds is a big download - 23+GB, so it will take a while, depending on your connection!

Both Sibelius Sounds and Note Performer are 'virtual instruments' and they can use ASIO4ALL.

I think it's time you asked the questions on the official Sibelius forum - https://www.sibelius.com/cgi-bin/helpce ... ?groupid=3

There are only three of us answering questions here and you've heard from two of us already!

Rob M.
Posts: 109
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:33 am
Sibelius Version: 2021.9
Operating System: Windows

Post by Rob M. » Sun Sep 26, 2021 10:50 pm

andyg wrote:
Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:01 am
Make sure that Sibelius is not using ASIO4ALL. Normally you would look in the Audio Engines window but if it won't load...... IIRC, GM and ASIO4ALL are not compatible.
Thanks for the suggestion. I've seen it suggested elsewhere as well that ASIO4All and GM don't play nicely together. So maybe what I need to do is make sure that ASIO4All hasn't turned up in the Audio Engines dialogue before I shut Sibelius down. After all, Sibelius did run just fine for 6 months after I installed ASIO4All. Then one fine morning, Sibelius wouldn't load, and uninstalling ASIO4All cured that problem. I'd love to know what triggered that.
As for Jamulus, I don't know anything about that app. There's propably a forum for that as well!
Jamulus is sort of a low-latency audio-only Zoom for musicians wanting to perform together over the Internet. But I have no idea why Jamulus needs an audio driver like ASIO4All on Windows while Zoom and its ilk don't. There is a Facebook group on Jamulus, and there may be other Jamulus groups elsewhere. It's likely that some members of those groups also use Sibelius, so I'll put a question or two on at least the Facebook group.
I'd download and install the Sibelius Sounds, or get something like Note Performer and use those sounds for playback. They're way better than the GM soundset and allow you to use various articulations of sound, like pizzicato or spiccato on strings. Sibelius Sounds is a big download - 23+GB, so it will take a while, depending on your connection!
I may end up doing that. I'll certainly agree that the GM sounds are probably best described as laughable. Particularly choir voice sounds, and choral scores is just about all I do in Sibelius. Which reminds me: I still have the DVD-ROM on which I got Sibelius 6. The Sibelius Sounds Essentials folder on that DVD is about 1GB in size. Is what's there likely to be useful to me at all?
I think it's time you asked the questions on the official Sibelius forum - https://www.sibelius.com/cgi-bin/helpce ... ?groupid=3
Actually, I did. But Mike beat them to a solution for my problem, so they never got a chance to demonstrate their superior wisdom. So I'll see if they can offer any suggestions as to how I can run Sibelius and Jamulus without having to constantly install/uninstall ASIO4All.
There are only three of us answering questions here and you've heard from two of us already!
Avid should be paying at least the two of you! :-)
Cheers...
Rob M.
------------
Sibelius user since Aug '08 (v5.x)
Now running Sibelius Ultimate 2021.2 on Win 10 Home x64 v21H1
AMD A10-5800K 3.8GHz APU on a Gigabyte GA-F2A85X-UP4 mobo; 8GB RAM; 2TB HDD

MikeLyons
Posts: 1631
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2016 7:20 pm
Sibelius Version: Ult. 2024.3.1/7.5
Operating System: Windows

Post by MikeLyons » Mon Sep 27, 2021 7:37 am

Hi Rob, if you don't want to use ASIO4ALL with Sibelius, but need to use it with Jamulus, make sure you untick the "Use virtual instruments" box.

As to using NP. You may still be disappointed at the vocal sounds. NP's are still rather poor. To get decent sounds, you'd really have to purchase a dedicated choral sample library. I have EWQLSC (East-West Quantum Leap Symphonic Choirs) which has fabulous voice sounds, but takes a huge - and do mean HUGE- amount of work to sound realistic.
use virtual instruments.png
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Last edited by MikeLyons on Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sib 6.2, 7.5 and 2023.6, Windows 11, 32GB RAM, 16TB 7200RPM Storage, 2TB SSD, Note Performer 3.3.2, EWQLSO, EWQLSC, Harmony Assistant and some others. mike@mike-lyons.co.uk

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