Staff drops out during playback at end of work

Discussion of playback and midi issues go here.
RickThomas
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2021 8:54 pm
Sibelius Version: 2021.2.0
Operating System: Windows

Post by RickThomas » Wed Jul 07, 2021 9:22 pm

I am seeing a problem similar to that in viewtopic.php?f=7&t=72086. I've included a link here to the work in question, where (at least for me) the bottom staff of the piano part drops out for the last six bars. If I have music following, the final few bars play just fine, except that the last bar of the additional music still displays the same problem. If I grab some subset of the final bars from the complete work and export them to another score, they play fine. If I then delete the corresponding section in the main score and re-append the exported bars, the problem is still there.

I've removed the last few bars and manually re-entered them. I've messed with dynamics, voices, playback setup and anything else I can think of.

I am running Sibelius Ultimate 21.2.0 with NotePerformer 3.3.2. (Incidentally, the various sets of Sibelius sounds behave the same way, but the General MIDI works correctly, whatever that means.) No channels are shared among the staves, but the problem is there even when they are. The machine runs Windows 10 Pro (64-bit) with 16GB RAM.

Here's a link to the score: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/odt881bjlzzt ... K28ta?dl=0. The score there includes an addendum of a few bars, which allows the real ending to play correctly. If I remove those bars or just erase the music in them, the problem returns.

Please do not judge the overall layout, as I'm just getting started on that part and have quite a long way to go.

I would appreciate any help or suggestions. I just hope it doesn't turn out to be something stupidly obvious. Or maybe I hope it does....

Thanks.

Rick


MikeLyons
Posts: 1631
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2016 7:20 pm
Sibelius Version: Ult. 2024.3.1/7.5
Operating System: Windows

Post by MikeLyons » Thu Jul 08, 2021 7:52 am

Hi,

I've had a play with this and discovered that if you copy the music into a new file the issue no longer occurs. I even went so far as to copy the whole of the last section "Ballabile final" into a new file and the issue went away.

"What is Where" shows nothing that could cause this. There is a possibility that the original file is starting to become corrupted or that this is an import from a much earlier version of sib or an xml.

The copying works whether I use a system or a passage selection. I might consider splitting the work up into separate files for now and just working on one section. You can always append them back together again after you've finished editing and note entry.
Sib 6.2, 7.5 and 2023.6, Windows 11, 32GB RAM, 16TB 7200RPM Storage, 2TB SSD, Note Performer 3.3.2, EWQLSO, EWQLSC, Harmony Assistant and some others. mike@mike-lyons.co.uk

RickThomas
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2021 8:54 pm
Sibelius Version: 2021.2.0
Operating System: Windows

Post by RickThomas » Thu Jul 08, 2021 3:24 pm

Oh, I had already done that and indeed the issue went away ... until I re-appended it to the rest of the piece. (I first tried it as an export, which I mentioned in my original post, then as a system copy, which I didn't. I apologize for the omission.) I just tried it again, with the same results. I also did my original entry and most of the note/dynamic/etc. editing as individual movements. I'm now at the layout stage and needed to put it all together, which is when the problem appeared.

It's not from an old version of Sibelius, as I started on this a few months ago. However, I did do the initial entry with Photoscore, and we all know that can be a little scary at times.

Speaking of scary, I just tried deleting the entire last movement, then manually re-entered the last nine bars alone (i.e., as if the entire movement were nine bars long). The bottom staff sound then disappeared starting with the last bar of the prior movement! So I deleted that movement (the Variation pour Lise) along with the bars I'd manually re-entered and only lost the sound of the last note in the previous variation. Deleted the Variation pour Luc; same thing. Deleted the Variation pour quatre danseuses ... and the LH stopped playing in the middle of the 18th bar from the end of the Pas. I just kept working my way backwards, with varying results: sometimes the sound would stop on just the last note, sometimes several bars back. It wasn't till I deleted Scene II that the prior scene ended correctly. So I restored Scene II and worked my way back bit by bit from the end. I finally stopped seeing the problem after deleting back through bar 25 (after moving the cross-staff stuff there into the bottom line). Just deleting that bar or section doesn't fix the problem for what follows, though.

That's where it stands now. I'll keep trying things and write up what I eventually find. Thank you for taking a look.

RickThomas
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2021 8:54 pm
Sibelius Version: 2021.2.0
Operating System: Windows

Post by RickThomas » Thu Jul 08, 2021 4:23 pm

I've found where it happens, though I have no idea about the why. In measure 21 of Scene II -- measure 304 of a work with 1947 measures -- the LH and RH both have D-E-F# rips to octave G's. If I remove the rip in the LH, the problem I've described goes away. Never mind that the problem might appear up to 1643 bars away; these notes seem to cause it. Removing part of the rip doesn't work; all of it has to go. Alternatively, replacing the appoggiatura notes (the slash on the F8 keypad) on both staves with acciaccatura notes (asterisk on F8) fixes it as well.

On the other hand, every time I would add or delete a note or slur to the figure, or even use undo, the key change that immediately follows would be repeated. It didn't show up in the music, but it was interesting to watch them stack up in the Timeline. It was easy enough to fix when I was done; it was merely weird.

Again, thanks for taking a look. I haven't decided whether to submit a bug report, as this is pretty obscure.

Rick

MikeLyons
Posts: 1631
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2016 7:20 pm
Sibelius Version: Ult. 2024.3.1/7.5
Operating System: Windows

Post by MikeLyons » Thu Jul 08, 2021 8:09 pm

Glad you found a solution.

All bugs are obscure until enough people report them!
Sib 6.2, 7.5 and 2023.6, Windows 11, 32GB RAM, 16TB 7200RPM Storage, 2TB SSD, Note Performer 3.3.2, EWQLSO, EWQLSC, Harmony Assistant and some others. mike@mike-lyons.co.uk

RickThomas
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2021 8:54 pm
Sibelius Version: 2021.2.0
Operating System: Windows

Post by RickThomas » Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:37 pm

Well, I just tried. And tried. But the sign-in for sibelius.users.tech-support goes to https://my.avid.com/account/orientation?websource=avid and eventually takes me on a circular path. I don't actually seem to be able to log in to the newsgroup, so I get an Access Denied when I try to submit a new thread.

MikeLyons
Posts: 1631
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2016 7:20 pm
Sibelius Version: Ult. 2024.3.1/7.5
Operating System: Windows

Post by MikeLyons » Fri Jul 09, 2021 7:43 am

Sib 6.2, 7.5 and 2023.6, Windows 11, 32GB RAM, 16TB 7200RPM Storage, 2TB SSD, Note Performer 3.3.2, EWQLSO, EWQLSC, Harmony Assistant and some others. mike@mike-lyons.co.uk

RickThomas
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2021 8:54 pm
Sibelius Version: 2021.2.0
Operating System: Windows

Post by RickThomas » Fri Jul 09, 2021 4:36 pm

Thank you. I should have been clearer. That is, in fact, where I went. Here's how it goes.
  1. I go to the forum page -- the address of the link you provided. It has the standard Avid header at the top, with Sign In link, with the thread list below.
  2. I click Sign In, which takes me to the page I mentioned: the Avid account sign-in page.
  3. I sign in, which takes me to my account page. At the bottom of that page is a 'Sibelius Forum' link, which is the same as the link you provided (again). When I click it, a new tab opens, starting me over at #1 above.
  4. When I give up on signing in, then upon attempting to submit a new thread, I get an Access Denied: 'You don't have permission to access "http://www.sibelius.com/cgi-bin/helpcenter/chat/chat.pl" on this server.'
It's only when I go to one of the links that isn't part of iLok that it wants me to sign in again. Anything under My Products, Account Info, etc., leaves me signed in. I can only think that something was broken recently in the web page, but that people who are already signed in to the forum itself (which is not linked to the iLok signin) are remembered.

MikeLyons
Posts: 1631
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2016 7:20 pm
Sibelius Version: Ult. 2024.3.1/7.5
Operating System: Windows

Post by MikeLyons » Fri Jul 09, 2021 9:32 pm

I'm not sure what iLok has to do with anything. Do you mean Avid Link?
Sib 6.2, 7.5 and 2023.6, Windows 11, 32GB RAM, 16TB 7200RPM Storage, 2TB SSD, Note Performer 3.3.2, EWQLSO, EWQLSC, Harmony Assistant and some others. mike@mike-lyons.co.uk

RickThomas
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2021 8:54 pm
Sibelius Version: 2021.2.0
Operating System: Windows

Post by RickThomas » Sat Jul 10, 2021 2:28 pm

Wrong terminology. Sorry -- I was distracted at the time, which is no excuse. I should have said something like, "It's only when I go to one of the Sibelius links under 'Other Avid Accounts' that it wants me to sign in again." Both of those links go to the same place, with only a small difference in parameters. That is, Sibelius Forum goes here:
> http://www.sibelius.com/cgi-bin/helpcenter/chat/chat.pl?com=show&groupid=3
while Sibelius Help Center goes here:
> http://www.sibelius.com/cgi-bin/helpcenter/chat/chat.pl?groupid=3

Both display the behavior I've described concerning signing in and starting a thread.

MikeLyons
Posts: 1631
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2016 7:20 pm
Sibelius Version: Ult. 2024.3.1/7.5
Operating System: Windows

Post by MikeLyons » Sat Jul 10, 2021 4:23 pm

Just re-read your previoous message. D'uh! That Sign-in button at the top of the page has absolutely bugger all to do with the forum. I think Avid put it there just to annoy.

If you can see the list of posts, you are in! If you can see the attached, you are there. I would advise setting your zoom factor to 200% (with your browser pointing to the page, press [ctrl]+ ) as it avoids all those bloody annoying flashy flying menus that avid thinks is some kind of selling point.
forum header.png
forum header.png (68.5 KiB) Viewed 7808 times
.

You should just be able to click on "Start New Thread" or one of the thread titles to get going.
Sib 6.2, 7.5 and 2023.6, Windows 11, 32GB RAM, 16TB 7200RPM Storage, 2TB SSD, Note Performer 3.3.2, EWQLSO, EWQLSC, Harmony Assistant and some others. mike@mike-lyons.co.uk

RickThomas
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2021 8:54 pm
Sibelius Version: 2021.2.0
Operating System: Windows

Post by RickThomas » Sat Jul 10, 2021 7:09 pm

Mike, I feel as though I'm wasting a lot of your time. I'm sorry.

I have exactly that, as the image below shows. Okay, the layout and order are slightly different, because of my settings. Since I have settings, which include my name and email address, it obviously knows who I am. But I can't post. I don't recall ever posting before, nor do I like flame wars. Given those things, even if I have posted, there's no reason I know of to have blocked me. I just tried posting again, in case the past couple days were a fluke, but I continue to get an Access Denied.
sibelius.users.tech-support.jpg
sibelius.users.tech-support.jpg (78.25 KiB) Viewed 7799 times

MikeLyons
Posts: 1631
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2016 7:20 pm
Sibelius Version: Ult. 2024.3.1/7.5
Operating System: Windows

Post by MikeLyons » Sun Jul 11, 2021 7:20 am

OK.

1. You are NOT wasting my time. This is an issue that needs sorting out. Also, it's what I'm here to do!
2. Many of us get "Access denied" from time to time. That forum is very old. it was saved from destruction a few years ago when avid wanted to re-vamp it in line with their other sites (protools etc) but we put up a huge fuss because of the huge wealth of knowledge that it holds which would have been lost.
3. Try a simple test message first. What error does that give? (Exact wording or a screenshot, please.) When you click on "Start New Thread" do you get to this page?(Image)
startnewthread.png
startnewthread.png (70.12 KiB) Viewed 7794 times
If there's an error message show it to me.
Sib 6.2, 7.5 and 2023.6, Windows 11, 32GB RAM, 16TB 7200RPM Storage, 2TB SSD, Note Performer 3.3.2, EWQLSO, EWQLSC, Harmony Assistant and some others. mike@mike-lyons.co.uk

RickThomas
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2021 8:54 pm
Sibelius Version: 2021.2.0
Operating System: Windows

Post by RickThomas » Sun Jul 11, 2021 2:09 pm

Well, that's interesting. It appears to be tied to the length of my post.

3. Yes, that's the page. I would include an image, but it looks as though I won't need to.
4. Here's what I've been getting. However, see below that.
SibeliusForum.AccessDenied.jpg
SibeliusForum.AccessDenied.jpg (31.6 KiB) Viewed 7787 times
I first tried this morning what I've been trying to post, which 1589 bytes. Then I tried a short test post, which worked. I'll try winnowing my original post down.

RickThomas
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2021 8:54 pm
Sibelius Version: 2021.2.0
Operating System: Windows

Post by RickThomas » Sun Jul 11, 2021 2:45 pm

Success!

Thank you for all your help, Mike. It never occurred to me that an Access Denied of all things would be due to the length of the post. Having been around the block a few times, I should have thought of it.

- Rick

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