Beginner searching for advice

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Aroem
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:11 am
Sibelius Version: Ultimate 2019
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Beginner searching for advice

Post by Aroem » Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:54 am

Hello guys!
This is my first message so I'll introduce myself very briefly : I've been playing the piano since I was a kid and I started composition and messing up with DAWs only 1 year and half ago. In short, I'm a newbie :) BUT I love it! As I'm getting more and more serious about it, I bought Cubase recently (during their big sales) and I'm also trying Sibelius and Noteperformer out at the moment.
I find it way easier to think and reflect (create complex pieces) while creating on a sheet of music than on a sequencer...BUT I have one major issue : I'm sure it comes as a surprise but I'm no Mozart and I can't hear all the melodies and counter-melodies in my head before writing them : I have to test things out...and that's where Sibelius falls short for me (I know it's not a DAW) : with Noteperformer, if I hit a key during playback, the delay is monstrous. It seems to work with the default sounds of Sib. but...I miss the fact that, like in a proper DAW, you can loop and try!

I've looked into integrating some VSTi into Sibelius (since from my tests, the music I play during a playback is not delayed) but from what I gathered, it seems to be a pain to make it work...Plus, articulation-wise, this seems really problematic...It is SO good to just have to write a small dot on a note to hear it go staccato...

So my question is : How do you guys do it? To create your 20-25 parts symphonic pieces...A DAW for creating and Sibelius just for engraving? Is there a way to achieve what I'm looking for?

Anyways, enough babbling on!

It'll be a pleasure to read you guys!

Aroem
Last edited by Aroem on Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:15 am, edited 2 times in total.

Re: Beginner searching for advice

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Aroem
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:11 am
Sibelius Version: Ultimate 2019
Operating System: Windows

Re: Beginner searching for advice

Post by Aroem » Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:57 am

(Sorry I answer my own post but...)
Moreover, from what I have gathered so far, composers tend to do the contrary : use a notation software and THEN use a DAW to record...

bobp
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Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:53 am

Re: Beginner searching for advice

Post by bobp » Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:20 pm

" if I hit a key during playback, the delay is monstrous. "
I have no idea what this means or what you are trying to do.

What version of Sibelius do you have? I hope it is the full version.
Of course you can add a staccato to a note.

There are ways to "loop" playback, but you can't at all think like your are using a DAW. My advice? For now forget NotePerformer. Learn how to use Sibelius first. Sibelius is not a DAW. It will follow score instructions like articulations, slurs, hairpins, dynamics, rit ant accel, and more.
Yes is you know notation, then the best course is to write in Sibelius then use your daw to put fine touches on a recording. Sometimes you might find that working in your DAW, that you want to change some notes. Change them also in the Sib file, and you always have a up to date score for real players. If that is a goal.
One problem you are going to have is that you will be writing for instruments you may not know much about. That shouldn't stop you, but do listen to a lot of the type of music you want to write.
Bob Porter
Sibelius 7.5, W10,i5,16 GB ram,desktop

Aroem
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:11 am
Sibelius Version: Ultimate 2019
Operating System: Windows

Re: Beginner searching for advice

Post by Aroem » Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:47 pm

Hey!
First, thanks for you reply.
" if I hit a key during playback, the delay is monstrous. "
I have no idea what this means or what you are trying to do.
I wasn't clear enough, sorry about that! What I'm trying to do is : during Sibelius playback of a score, I'd wish I'd be able to play notes and lines on my midi-keyboard to test them out before writing them. I can't because when I press a key of my midi keyboard, the delay is something like a second so it's not workable.
What version of Sibelius do you have? I hope it is the full version.
Of course you can add a staccato to a note.

Sorry, again, trying to be funny to get my point across. What I meant was this : I've used 2 different DAWs (Ableton and Cubase) and I think keyswitches and velocity maps are a pain to work with and it was refreshing to only have to write a small dot on a note to have it playback as I wished...No need to have a 100 different midi tracks with a 100 different articulations and so on...That's why it is easier for me to get creative when I can write a score (so use a software like Sibelius)

I do know notation and do have a fairly decent knowledge of Sibelius as I've spent quite a good amount of time on it recently. I've tried experimenting everything that I could possibly imagine and have learnt quite a lot about the software.

I hear what you say about NotePerformer but still, it's always nice to hear the results of one's good efforts...
the best course is to write in Sibelius then use your daw to put fine touches on a recording
That's what I was planning to do for this special orchestral piece of music I'm writing. But, as I tried (unconvincingly) to explain, I find it difficult to imagine lines and counter-lines without playing with the orchestra to see if it 'fits' .

That's why I was wondering about the method you guys use to create your own pieces of music. Maybe, you're way above me in this field and write all your music without the need to "perform" it.

Thank you for your advice and I'm actually looking forward to looking into new instruments! (yesterday was all about the different trumpets! Outstanding!)

Aroem

MikeLyons
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Re: Beginner searching for advice

Post by MikeLyons » Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:41 pm

I use Sibelius exclusively. There is no delay between inputting a note and hearing it. For sound I use NotePerformer which gives excellent results with minimum effort. I can't be arsed with all the messing about needed in a DAW. NP is more than good enough to provide a basic demo. I don't want to be wasting valuable composition time 'tweaking'.

BTW I have Cubase and EWQLSO and EWQLSC but I never use them.
Sib 6.2, 7.5 and 2019.9, Windows 10, 32GB RAM, 8TB 7200RPM Storage, 2TB SSD Note Performer 3, EWQLSO, EWQLSC, Harmony Assistant and some others.

Aroem
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:11 am
Sibelius Version: Ultimate 2019
Operating System: Windows

Re: Beginner searching for advice

Post by Aroem » Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:43 pm

Thanks for your answer Mike.
There is no delay between inputting a note and hearing it
Do you mean during playback?
I'm also thinking along those lines, Mike, even though I'm just a beginner, for orchestral things, writing a full score is easier for me whereas, let's say, for more ambient, electronic-sounding music, using a DAW directly doesn't give me any problems...
By the way, Sibelius doesn't agree with my external soundcard Asio driver (a Prodipe Studio 22+, very simple stuff) and every time I try to set the driver to the Prodipe driver inside Sibelius, it crashes and goes back to the ASIO4ALL one...Maybe that could explain the delay while playback...Any thoughts on what I should do?

Thanks for your answers by the way!

bobp
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Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:53 am

Re: Beginner searching for advice

Post by bobp » Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:28 pm

Sounds like you are wanting to play along with your score with Sibelius inputting what you play.
Make sure you have the latest drivers for your soundcard and keyboard. Perhaps experiment with other sound drivers to see which gives the best results.

As to your other questions. Each of us composes differently. I'm not a piano player, so I don't think in terms of what I could do at the piano. Sure, I could hook up a keyboard to my computer, but I don't really have the work space for that. I enter one note at a time with the mouse. Not very efficient. But I have to think about every note. Is the note I just entered the right note at the right time in the right instrument? It's not really as slow a process as it sounds. Once I get going, things can happen pretty fast. Besides, I write for the fun of it, so I enjoy the process.
Bob Porter
Sibelius 7.5, W10,i5,16 GB ram,desktop

andyg
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Re: Beginner searching for advice

Post by andyg » Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:10 pm

You don't say what computer, soundcard or operating system you're using, but the delay you're encountering is latency - the time it takes your audio system to process that key press into a note. The default on Windows systems is horrendous, especially if you're using an onboard sound ship rather than a proper sound card.

Make sure that any audio card drivers are up to date and don't believe Windows if it tells you that! Go to the website of your soundcard/soundchip's naker and get the latest driver from there. Use the DS or WASAPI driver and not the MME driver. If you're on a Mac I can't help you, I gave up on Apple years ago.

You could also try ASIO4ALL, which can fool your system into thinking that there is an ASIO capable soundcard installed and get latency down to maybe 20 milliseconds or so, depending on the rest of your computer.

MikeLyons
Posts: 573
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Sibelius Version: Ult. 2019.9/7.51/6.2
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Re: Beginner searching for advice

Post by MikeLyons » Sun Jul 07, 2019 6:27 am

Could you possibly post screenshots of the following dialogs:
Playback Devices
Audio Engine Options

Don't take a phot with your phone (as some do) use the built-in snap taker in the Mac OS.

Take the snap with the Interface drop down open so we can see all your available options.
Attachments
audio engine options interface open.png
audio engine options interface open.png (116.69 KiB) Viewed 703 times
Sib 6.2, 7.5 and 2019.9, Windows 10, 32GB RAM, 8TB 7200RPM Storage, 2TB SSD Note Performer 3, EWQLSO, EWQLSC, Harmony Assistant and some others.

Aroem
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:11 am
Sibelius Version: Ultimate 2019
Operating System: Windows

Re: Beginner searching for advice

Post by Aroem » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:27 pm

Hi all!
Thanks for all your replies!
I've been away from home and unable to go on the internet!
Sounds like you are wanting to play along with your score with Sibelius inputting what you play.
That's exactly what I would like to do Bobp : playing along with the score!

I realise that I haven't given any details about my configuration : I'm on windows 10, I have 20 Go of Ram and Intel Core i5 at 3.40 Ghz, which should be good enough!
I also have an external soundcard (a Prodipe Studio 22+) and I installed the drivers which come with it BUT Sibelius doesn't want them : it crashes when I try to go from the ASIO4ALL to the proprietary drivers (Prodipe).

Yeah, let me try and attach a Screenshot of my audio config.
drop-down menu.png
drop-down menu.png (28.84 KiB) Viewed 579 times
Thanks for taking the time to answer! I really appreciate!

bobp
Posts: 1157
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:53 am

Re: Beginner searching for advice

Post by bobp » Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:31 pm

You might try deleting ASIO4all from your computer. Then see if the Prodipe driver works.
Bob Porter
Sibelius 7.5, W10,i5,16 GB ram,desktop

Aroem
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:11 am
Sibelius Version: Ultimate 2019
Operating System: Windows

Re: Beginner searching for advice

Post by Aroem » Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:57 pm

Good idea, Bob! I'll try that and let you know!

MikeLyons
Posts: 573
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2016 7:20 pm
Sibelius Version: Ult. 2019.9/7.51/6.2
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Re: Beginner searching for advice

Post by MikeLyons » Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:24 pm

That would have been my suggestion, too.

Actually, I have heard it recommended to remove the Generic Low latency driver as well. it is installed bt Stenberg with Cubase, but it can cause problems with other Sib drivers. Also, the latency is usually sky high.

The order of preference for trying different drivers is
ASIO
WASAPI
DS
MME

As you go down the list, you will probably find your latency going up exponentially. Avoid anything that tells you the latency is 0 - it's lying.
Sib 6.2, 7.5 and 2019.9, Windows 10, 32GB RAM, 8TB 7200RPM Storage, 2TB SSD Note Performer 3, EWQLSO, EWQLSC, Harmony Assistant and some others.

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